The Marketing Perspective | Marketing vs. Sales [Endless Customers Podcast S.1. Ep. 36]

This transcript has been generated by AI and not checked for accuracy. 

Allison Riggs
0:00:00
It is so easy for our sales and marketing teams to silo themselves, to lean into stories that they're telling themselves, find that separation and not find the synergy and the harmony that they need to build holistic strategies to build revenue.

Allison Riggs
0:00:17
And Alex, that's what I wanna talk to you guys about today is how can you bridge that gap to build revenue?

Alex Winter
0:00:23
Let's talk about it. Welcome back to Endless Customers. My name is Alex Winter and today I'm joined by Allison Riggs who's a head trainer and coach here at Impact. Allison, welcome back to the show.

Allison Riggs
0:00:41
Hey, Alex.

Allison Riggs
0:00:42
I always love being here, man.

Alex Winter
0:00:43
Well, great to have you back on the show. Let's get into it. Today we're talking about marketing versus sales. Now, if you watched a few episodes earlier, Chris was talking about sales versus marketing. Today, we're gonna flip the switch

Alex Winter
0:00:56
and we're gonna talk about the marketing side versus sales. And we talk a lot about making sure your sales and marketing teams are aligned. We talk about how important it is to have a revenue squad, but we know that it's a lot easier said than done and that it's not always that easy to implement

Alex Winter
0:01:12
and depending on what industry and what organization, there's a lot of variables. So high level, can we talk about alignment and how important that is to start things off between marketing and sales? And that we don't wanna create a divide,

Alex Winter
0:01:22
like disclaimer, marketing and sales should be friends, they should get along, they shouldn't be in two different lanes like a lot of times they tend to be, so.

Allison Riggs
0:01:31
That's what we, the reason why we talk about it so much, Alex, is because we've found so many organizations where it's not always necessarily that sales and marketing are against each other, it's that they're not working in harmony together. And when we find that those teams do work together,

Allison Riggs
0:01:51
there can be huge improvements in so many areas from not only deals closed, but the voice of the organization and the consistency from the client experience from the very beginning of the website to the sales process,

Allison Riggs
0:02:06
to even with their customer service teams and operations teams. So the biggest component here is how can we help marketing and sales find that synergy, work so incredibly well together that they're both proactively finding ways

Allison Riggs
0:02:25
to work in that harmonious relationship to be the revenue team. You've heard this too, we talk about this a lot, right? The revenue team isn't just even sales and marketing, but it's how your operations team, your customer service team, everybody comes together.

Alex Winter
0:02:41
Leadership too, yeah, top down.

Allison Riggs
0:02:43
Yeah, leadership, of course, right? So building that revenue for the company as a whole.

Alex Winter
0:02:48
For listeners and watchers out there that don't know, what is a revenue squad? Just so we define it.

Allison Riggs
0:02:54
Yeah, so a revenue team, a revenue squad, a revenue group, whatever you want to call it, as long as it's got the right people in it, which is typically going to be sales, marketing, leadership, and anyone else that impacts revenue.

Allison Riggs
0:03:10
So that could be account managers, that could be your customer service team, your client services team, your client support teams. Anyone that works with bringing in new leads, retaining those customers, and helping them even get in referrals as well.

Allison Riggs
0:03:28
Anyone that can impact revenue and profitability should be in a revenue team. Here's also one caveat that I want to throw out there too is a lot of times people think that marketing should own the revenue team because they're typically that first line of defense. Your revenue team should have key contacts in every department that is present. So it should be owned together jointly by sales, marketing, and leadership.

Allison Riggs
0:03:59
There should be one point person that really helps leads the charge and brings things to the table so that everyone is really getting that harmonious team effort all together.

Alex Winter
0:04:11
Well said, it's a collective group effort. It really is one team, one dream kind of mentality because it really does create that alignment that I think tends to be the disconnect in a lot of businesses. And once you gain that alignment,

Alex Winter
0:04:23
the results and what can happen is pretty astounding. So I'm looking here, I have a stat from LinkedIn that says nine out of 10 sales and marketing professionals say that they're misaligned across strategy, process, content, culture, everything that you were just saying. We talked about the importance of why you need to fix that,

Alex Winter
0:04:41
but what causes it? Why do you think that is the case in a lot of organizations and how do you try to break out of that mentality? Or like, let's say you're in an organization where you wanna have a revenue squad and you're maybe on the sales team

Alex Winter
0:04:53
or you're maybe on the marketing team but like you don't know how to bring it up and lift it into leadership and get everyone, you know, look in the same direction.

Allison Riggs
0:05:00
Well, one, it definitely starts with mission.

Allison Riggs
0:05:04
Okay.

Allison Riggs
0:05:05
And I say that because when we work for a company, we should all be driving towards the same mission together. And so if we can ensure that the teams and departments as a whole, but even as individuals, that we are all striving after the same mission and on that same roadmap, on that same path together,

Allison Riggs
0:05:29
then that's the number one thing that's gonna help build the culture of a revenue team and bring more alignment. So making sure everyone's aligned on the goals that we're going after, the strategy that we're trying to

Allison Riggs
0:05:40
implement, and how as individuals we can contribute to that. So, Dave, definitely that's the first piece. The second piece, how we get off track, is communication. If these teams aren't finding ways to be communicating together, right, and that doesn't always even mean meetings. A lot of times people are like, Alison, oh my gosh, another meeting that we have to put on our calendar. Well, yes, you should have consistent meetings with people in the same rooms together,

Allison Riggs
0:06:10
but that's not the only place and the only way that you should be communicating. We need to have other forms of asynchronous communication collaboration so that when these nine out of 10 companies and individuals say that they're misaligned,

Allison Riggs
0:06:26
they should have a place and a forum to have collaboration and communication. And I'll even tack on here, because you know I'm so passionate about this, Alex.

Alex Winter
0:06:36
Yes, tacking on.

Allison Riggs
0:06:38
Right? Communication isn't a one-way street. Just because somebody tells you something doesn't mean that you've communicated about it. When we say the communication, it's gotta be understood, it's gotta be heard,

Allison Riggs
0:06:51
and there needs to be conversation around it as well. That is a big piece of communication, right, is do we understand it? Do they know how they're going to implement it, how it impacts them? That's why it's so important when we say the misalignment, we've got to define what alignment looks like. That's the number one thing.

Allison Riggs
0:07:12
If anyone's watching this podcast and you're like, what's the one thing that we should make sure that we should do? First, define what alignment looks like for your sales and marketing teams. How does that come to fruition?

Allison Riggs
0:07:24
Because if you can define it, then you can make it happen.

Alex Winter
0:07:28
Extremely well said. I couldn't agree with you more. And I think communication, it sounds almost redundant or like silly to even mention that, but that's usually the root cause of the problem. And also being honest. There's a lot of times where people may feel a certain way and usually it's

Alex Winter
0:07:43
around negative feelings. So like that something happens and they're feeling negatively and instead of saying something, they don't. And then over time that compounds and it creates a lot of problems and issues that you really have to force yourself to have some of those more difficult conversations because ultimately you're trying to get to a meaningful place to learn and grow and help each other to be in a better spot.

Alex Winter
0:08:03
And if you don't communicate that, it's never gonna fix itself.

Allison Riggs
0:08:08
Yeah.

Allison Riggs
0:08:08
I know Chris touched on this too a little bit, but sometimes we've gotta like, get rid of some of those negative thoughts. Because one, could it be a story that marketing is telling themselves that sales doesn't like the content that they're writing

Allison Riggs
0:08:22
or that they're not using the content, right? If we're not having open communication or just flat out asking, like, are you using the content? How are you using the content? Do you like it? Like, is there something that you would change? If we're not just openly stepping out and having the conversations that might be the uncomfortable ones, then we're never going to get to alignment. Yeah. Right. That's where the definition of alignment is key, right, is we're aligned because we have the hard conversations,

Allison Riggs
0:08:51
like the uncomfortable conversations, right? Like we get into, it's actually funny, a client said this to me, that he doesn't call it friction. He calls it pressure, positive pressure from two sides that are coming together to choose one path.

8
0:09:08
I like that.

Allison Riggs
0:09:09
And I love that too, right? Because doesn't like pressure make diamonds? Like, right? Like pressure can make so many things, right? And so that's where-

Alex Winter
0:09:20
Well, friction has such a, I don't know, the connotation around it, like friction versus pressure. They just, it feels different. It feels less intense, I guess, is a good word to use.

Alex Winter
0:09:30
Yeah.

Allison Riggs
0:09:31
Yeah, like friction feels like hard. And you're like, man, that's gonna be like a difficult thing to do. Like it's, you know, two very coarse things coming together versus pressure is just a gentle pushing between two groups of people

Allison Riggs
0:09:46
that can make really great outcomes. And so we get misaligned when we're not willing to come in and just call things for what they are, ask really open questions, decide what alignment looks like, and always be moving towards that path together. And I will say, because I love my marketing folks out there,

Allison Riggs
0:10:10
I do so, so much, right? I also love my sales team members, but I have found that sometimes marketing is in fear of the sales team, or they're nervous, or they're uncomfortable because the sales team makes all the money and they're closing the deals,

Allison Riggs
0:10:25
and they're so important, and like maybe sometimes they've got big personalities and big egos and the marketing team just makes assumptions or tells themselves these stories versus just going out and asking like, what would actually help you in your sales process?

Allison Riggs
0:10:41
Like, what type of content would you use? Or what could I do differently or better so that this type of article or this video could help you build more trust, build more authority, and help close more deals, getting more customers, and helping build our brand.

Alex Winter
0:11:00
Totally. Truer words could not have been spoken, for real, because I'm on the marketing squad. Austin and I here in studio, we live on the marketing side of the equation here at Impact and I think it happens in a lot of companies

Alex Winter
0:11:10
where we want to make meaningful content, we want to do all the things that you're saying, but there tends to be a gap between the sales folks and maybe there's some egos, or maybe they're setting their ways, or whatever story we're telling ourselves, right?

Alex Winter
0:11:24
But you have to break down those walls. And there's definitely a stereotype, this is a perfect segue, there's definitely a stereotype around like, sales people don't know what the marketing people do. And sales people make all the money,

Alex Winter
0:11:34
they're driving the revenue, and they're always like the marketing team is always like kind of the butt end of the joke or the, you know, the, it's just true. We tend to get the brunt of like the, hey, we don't know what marketing is doing, but we're, it's fine because we're making all the money. So I guess we'll keep paying for their salaries, right? And that doesn't have to be true. It really doesn't. But what would you give advice for like marketing

Alex Winter
0:11:56
folks out there to help break down some of these walls? You mentioned some high level stuff, but like, let's say you don't have good relationship with your sales team. Let's say you're not talking to your sales folks, you're not watching sales calls, you're not having these conversations

Alex Winter
0:12:08
in your revenue squad meetings, maybe you're not even having revenue squad meetings. Like, how do you start to bridge those gaps effectively? And you talk to a ton of clients, you work with a lot of clients on doing exactly this to break down these walls.

Alex Winter
0:12:19
So, what advice can you give for people out there?

Allison Riggs
0:12:22
You mentioned some really good things to start off with. But let's break them down into two specific things. One is communication. I know we already said it, and you're gonna hear me say it again at least three or four more times during this podcast, because communication

Allison Riggs
0:12:38
is so incredibly important. So there needs to be at least a monthly meeting between the sales teams, or the sales team leaders, and your marketing team leaders. It just needs to happen. We've got some really great resources

Allison Riggs
0:12:55
that maybe we can link in this podcast too about what a revenue team meeting can look like, the questions that should be asked, the agendas that should happen, but there has to be this synergy. There has to be communication

Allison Riggs
0:13:08
between what's happening in the sales world, what's happening in the marketing world, and how can we bridge this gap and create really great content, create really great campaigns, and create the synergy between

Allison Riggs
0:13:20
what's happening in both of those worlds.

Alex Winter
0:13:22
Yeah, that makes sense.

Allison Riggs
0:13:23
And so, there's gotta be collaboration.

Alex Winter
0:13:25
Yeah, and how often would you say like those meetings or conversations need to happen? Is that like a quarterly thing? Is that a monthly thing? Like, what are we talking about as far as like trying to get these conversations to happen more fluidly?

Allison Riggs
0:13:37
So, I would say 100% has to be at least monthly. If you can get a monthly recurring calendar meeting, that is a priority for both teams. And this is where leadership comes in. Leadership has to say, we've made a decision for our sales and marketing teams to be aligned, to find that harmony and synergy.

Allison Riggs
0:13:59
I'm going to use all the buzzwords, y'all, bring them back to your companies here. But it's synergy. There's gotta be, leadership's gotta say, this has to happen. You've gotta make this meeting a priority.

Allison Riggs
0:14:12
You have to show up. And here's a little preview to the next one. The second big one besides communication is participation. Participation, not just in the meetings, but in the meetings is important, but we'll talk more about what participation looks like.

Allison Riggs
0:14:28
But there's gotta be participation in those meetings. Where there's communication, there's collaboration, we're talking about what's working, what's not working,

Allison Riggs
0:14:39
what are our goals?

Allison Riggs
0:14:40
You've gotta have a monthly meeting that goes through that. Now, can you have quarterly meetings that get into 90 day strategies, that get into six month strategies that can talk about the rest of the year, 100%. You should still have very strategic meetings

Allison Riggs
0:14:58
that come in quarterly. I even have some teams that meet biweekly because their teams are so aligned and that they find those meetings so valuable that they have biweekly meetings that are more tactical. What content was recently published?

Allison Riggs
0:15:17
What are you using in your sales process? What's being effective? What haven't we covered? What gaps are we missing?

Allison Riggs
0:15:25
Right?

Allison Riggs
0:15:26
Then when we get into those monthly or even the quarterly big strategic meetings, it's what are the goals? How are we gonna help each other hit them together? So the communication and actual face-to-face, whether it's digital or it's like actually physically in person,

Allison Riggs
0:15:42
we've gotta have those meetings and we've gotta have those communications.

Alex Winter
0:15:45
Yeah, you said something that really stuck out too with leadership and that's a big piece. If you don't have buy-in from the top down, it doesn't work. If the boss says this is what we're doing, everyone tends to listen a little bit more

Alex Winter
0:15:57
than if it's just the sales leader or the marketing leader or somebody within the team that's trying to bring it up. It's always that much more difficult to break through those layers. So, that's a huge piece that I totally agree with. I also think too, you know, that there's a stereotype from the marketing side

Alex Winter
0:16:11
that salespeople don't like to change their ways, they're stuck in their ways. They may, maybe they've been selling for, you know, a long time and they're great at what they do. They close a lot of deals. It's not to say that they aren't doing their job well, but they might be missing things and they might not see some opportunities or some ways to improve and to continue to learn and grow. So do you think that the marketing team can help in those situations and what would you recommend they do?

Alex Winter
0:16:33
So the biggest thing is.

Allison Riggs
0:16:36
We know that the way that people are buying has changed. So even if our sales team is still doing the old thing, they're only connecting with the way that old, the way that people old buy. Not older people, not calling out the old folks out there. Right?

Alex Winter
0:16:57
But there are gaps, there are generational gaps and that's the truth, you know?

Allison Riggs
0:17:01
There totally are. And if we continue to sell in the old way, yes, can we still close deals? 100%. But you said it really well, Alex, is are there things that we're missing?

Allison Riggs
0:17:12
Are there gaps and new buyers and buyer mentality shifts that are happening that our marketing team is on the forefront? Like they're on the cusp of this. Like they're seeing it. They're feeling it. They're hearing it.

Allison Riggs
0:17:26
They're editing the website. They're looking at analytics. They've got a lot of data to show. And so this is even where that wall of, well, I don't know, like sales is doing well. I don't know if they're going to hear these ideas. Like, I'm not sure.

Allison Riggs
0:17:43
We've got to be brave and we got to be curious. And we're not here to completely change what they're doing. We're here to help them be even a little bit better.

Allison Riggs
0:17:54
Right.

Allison Riggs
0:17:55
Because every salesperson that truly wants to be a great salesperson knows that there might be a chance that they've got a little bit of growth that they can still do.

Alex Winter
0:18:05
Yeah, and I've never met a salesperson that wouldn't say yes to that. That's like an OG real salesperson, because ultimately, they're very competitive, and they want their numbers to be the best they can be. If they're hitting their goals,

Alex Winter
0:18:16
they want to exceed their goals. Like, that's a, it's just like a core mentality of like good sales folks. So if you can challenge them openly, and in a way that's like, hey, if you think you're doing good,

Alex Winter
0:18:25
you could be doing great, and here's how you can do it. It's really amazing the shift in the mentality and what can happen.

Allison Riggs
0:18:32
And even with sales teams, I think sales teams, if we were gonna go into that old mentality, sales teams has mainly viewed, mostly viewed marketing teams as a support system. I ask marketing for stuff, I need a brochure, I need a landing page, I need an email template,

Allison Riggs
0:18:48
I need this, I need that, right? Like there is that balance between these two departments that if we do have that mentality, what a beautiful place to start. How can marketing support you even more and in different ways to help you build trust

Allison Riggs
0:19:07
and build more authority and empathy with your potential customers and even current customers. So if we can put that lens on of, we're here to support and help, we're not here to flip everything on its head, then that's where you start to build this trust

Allison Riggs
0:19:27
in between those two departments.

Allison Riggs
0:19:29
Yeah, I love it.

Alex Winter
0:19:30
So you work with a ton of clients, you present on this stuff, you're definitely an expert, and you have a lot of hands-on experience real-world experience Could you share a story with us where maybe a company or a client of yours? You don't have to give names but like they maybe weren't doing this Well, maybe sales was on one side of the equation and marketing was in the other side and they had their separate sandboxes

Alex Winter
0:19:52
and you managed to get them to start working together to get this alignment to communicate and Where it took them like a to be like they were here with their sales and now they're they're here.

Allison Riggs
0:20:01
Yeah, so I'll speak to one of our clients who's a really large education, early learning education organization in business. And they've been in business for a very long time. 50 plus years, this organization. So let me say, that old sales mentality, right?

Allison Riggs
0:20:22
Very old school.

Allison Riggs
0:20:23
Yeah.

Alex Winter
0:20:24
And they're doing something right, 50 years. I mean, that's a long time to be in business. So they're clearly doing something right.

Allison Riggs
0:20:30
And this is the interesting part too, Alex, that a lot of times people think when they're bringing in endless customers or they ask you answer or sales and marketing coaching that something must be wrong. But not every company that comes in here has a big problem.

Allison Riggs
0:20:48
Maybe they're just looking to continue to grow or grow at a faster pace to gain more market share, to really come in as that educational voice, that most trusted voice in their space. And so this organization was on that ladder side of things were going well. Their sales team is closing deals. They are doing the things that they've always done.

Allison Riggs
0:21:11
They're very regional sales structure, right? So they've got specific geographic sales team members who have their own little region that they're working in. And when we came in, one, they didn't have a tech stack. That was really working for them to track the sales that were happening.

Allison Riggs
0:21:33
A lot of it was very anecdotal when related to the revenue that was coming in. They're hitting their numbers. They know that these specific clients are closing, but we didn't have that bridge to show us exactly what was working really, really well,

Allison Riggs
0:21:47
or the specific campaigns that were working. Enough so that they would go to events and they were writing people's names down on pieces of paper and either mailing them or sending pictures of those paper forms and paper contacts to the marketing team. So you can even see in there, right?

Allison Riggs
0:22:08
Very traditional in some senses. So when we came in to coach and train and work with their sales team specifically, they were in that boat of, we've done this really well. We know what we're doing. Well, when we came in as the marketing team and as some of that marketing support, we talked through how one, we need a tech stack

Allison Riggs
0:22:26
that's gonna help us show the ROI. But the second part of this is, y'all are probably having a lot of the same conversations, or you're having to manually reach out to a lot of these potential clients. And you're probably having to very specifically

Allison Riggs
0:22:43
say the same things or remember the same things that you're saying over and over again, right? So how can the marketing team step in and help? Now with that, we have one specific rep that truly, truly embraced using the tech stack, using HubSpot. He started to use assignment selling.

Allison Riggs
0:23:03
He had big grants that were going out, that instead of having to manually send emails, we were able to help him create templates. We showed him how to create one-to-one video that he had never done before. Like hadn't even thought about sending videos.

Alex Winter
0:23:18
Right?

Allison Riggs
0:23:18
He was on track to hit his goals. He's gonna close out this year a million dollars higher than he was forecasting, just doing the traditional stuff.

Alex Winter
0:23:29
Wow, did you hear that folks? A million dollars higher than he was forecasting. That's enormous.

Allison Riggs
0:23:35
He was able to reach out to people in new ways and in different ways and to educate them. That was the feedback that he got was one, they're like, I've never gotten a video from anyone that was holding up a little sign that had my name on it and just piqued my interest from the very beginning, but also stepped in from the educational perspective that said, Hey,

Allison Riggs
0:23:54
here's everything you need to know about this grant, not let me sell you products that you can use this grant for. It was, Hey, you've got this money coming your way. Let me show you how to use it, whether it's with me or somebody else.

Alex Winter
0:24:07
I love it.

Allison Riggs
0:24:08
And who do you think they chose to spend that money with, Alex?

Alex Winter
0:24:11
With this guy.

Allison Riggs
0:24:12
With this guy.

Alex Winter
0:24:12
Duh, with this company, without a doubt. Why would you not? Yeah, it makes sense.

Allison Riggs
0:24:17
And it was all because he was willing, as a salesperson, to try something new.

Alex Winter
0:24:22
Try something new, and ultimately to build trust. And at the end of the day, if anyone knows the ask and answer, endless customers out there, we're in the business of trust. Because people do business with other folks

Alex Winter
0:24:33
that they know, like in trust. That's what it's all about.

Allison Riggs
0:24:36
And that's where when I said, communication was number one, number two is participation.

Alex Winter
0:24:40
Okay.

Allison Riggs
0:24:41
You can get your sales team to participate in videos, to be the subject matter experts in your articles. If you can show them that they are really, truly amazing salespeople and experts in their field, and that we as a marketing team can use that, that's the game changer.

Allison Riggs
0:25:01
Sales has to participate, marketing has to encourage and nurture that participation, whether it's speaking up in meetings, whether it is being subject matter experts, whether it's being on camera with the team, whether it's trying out new ideas,

Allison Riggs
0:25:19
because that's the big thing for sales team members. You can tell me all day long that you don't want to do the things once you show me that it didn't work.

Allison Riggs
0:25:28
I love that.

Alex Winter
0:25:29
Prove that it doesn't work

Allison Riggs
0:25:30
and then you don't have to do it again.

Alex Winter
0:25:31
But when it does work, you're gonna hear me say, I told you so.

Allison Riggs
0:25:35
Well, I wouldn't say, don't say I told you so. But you can just have a really big grin on your face and say, what's next?

Alex Winter
0:25:45
Yeah, of course. And hey, when you get wins like that, it starts to build confidence. It gets everyone excited. And then it opens up the doors to all the possibilities that are out there.

Allison Riggs
0:25:53
100%.

Alex Winter
0:25:55
I love everything you're saying. So one last question, really more about closing thoughts here, what can marketers take away from this conversation to be better partners with our sales friends and our sales folks?

Allison Riggs
0:26:06
The same thing I kind of just said there at the end, right,

Allison Riggs
0:26:08
is tell me that you weren't able to connect with your sales team once you've tried to connect with your sales team. Go in with an open mind, put out everything on the table, have a little bit of radical candor, say what you're thinking and feeling, right?

Allison Riggs
0:26:26
Go into a meeting, I would start with one champion. Pick one champion within your organization that you believe will be open to participating in videos, participating in articles, trying out some one-to-one video, trying out some of these new cool things that you're talking about,

Allison Riggs
0:26:44
that really wants to be a part of something special, and start there. Build that relationship, give them ideas, and then help them understand the why. That's another really big thing about sales team members that I have found is that when they understand the why,

Allison Riggs
0:27:04
the what, the how, and they can get it and it clicks for them, that's when you're gonna get the communication and the participation because they're on board, they're in the ship with you, rowing with you, because they know the mission behind it as well.

Alex Winter
0:27:21
Well said, extremely well said, great conversation today. Thanks for being on the show. For anyone that has follow up questions, that wants to talk more about marketing and sales, sales and marketing, how everything works together, how can they get in touch with you, Allison?

Alex Winter
0:27:32
I'll bend your ear.

Allison Riggs
0:27:33
Yeah, so you can email me, I'm always up for email, it's just arigs at impactplus.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn. You can also find me on the Impact Plus website as well. I'm always open to conversations and helping marketers and sales team members

Allison Riggs
0:27:51
to communicate, participate, and really drive more revenue for their organizations.

Alex Winter
0:27:57
Alison, thanks again for being on the show. It's great to see you.

Allison Riggs
0:28:00
You too, Alex. I can't wait for the next one.

Alex Winter
0:28:02
Absolutely, and for everybody out there watching and listening, this is Endless Customers. watching and listening, this is Endless Customers. I'm Alex Winter. We'll see you on the next episode.